LPOTG Review

12/3/2000

Cathy wrote:
>I've been waiting to get to this episode because it contains something
that I can never figure out. Namely, was Baltar lying when he said he
went along with the Cylons in a vain attempt to save Picon, or was that
a ruse to gain Adama's trust? <
 
 I think I've finally figured this part out.  When I watched it as a
teen, I didn't follow the plot twists. . . Now, let's see.  My take on
Baltar:
 
1) He betrays humanity originally because he is told that Piscon
(sp??), his homeworld, will be spared -- for him to rule.  So he is a
traitor to all humanity out of greed.  Of course, when he was
"recruited" by the Cylons, he was probably told that he would die like
everyone else, if he didn't go along (was this part explained in the
novel -- I don't remember).
2) He goes along after the destruction because he convinces the IL that
he can track down the Galactica -- thus his life is spared and he's
given command of the base ship.
3) His "true" intentions when he tracks the Fleet to Kobol is exactly
what he tells Adama (more or less, anyway, because he would change his
mind and strategy as soon as he needed to) -- he wants to lead the
Galactica back to Cylon and attack.  I believe him here, because if
they had succeeded, he would have been a hero and redeemed.
4) Lucifer suspects that Baltar is not to be trusted and attacks
anyway.  Thus, the Cylons attack, and the chamber caves in.
5) Apollo and Adama and Serina do try to rescue Baltar, but he's
trapped under the fallen pillar, so they have to leave him.
6) At that point, Baltar vows revenge against Adama and is out to get
him.
 
     Really, this is a fairly complex plot for "just a TV show."  And
it took me a while to figure it out.  Now, is Baltar ever "truthful"
about anything?  Only at the moment when the "truth" will serve his
best interests.  And that could change every single centon, depending
on who he talked to!
     Okay, now that I started on plot twists.  This thought came to
mind -- Even before it was revealed that Starbuck is an orphan (I
believe LL is the first mention of his lack of family), the character
development fits that image.  Especially in LPotG.  SB is jealous and
feels threatened by Serina, as Apollo even points out.  Apollo is his
closest, strongest attachment -- his family.  When he launches against
orders -- because "Serina is Apollo's wingman" -- it makes more sense,
knowing the whole story.  It's still inexcusable and a childishly
stupid thing for him to do.  (Not to mention totally against orders!) 
Just what was he going to accomplish by flying out into the void alone? 
Or did he know that Apollo would follow?  Having rescued Apollo from
the void, he should have known better!  That was pure emotion over any
kind of reason.  And , yes, he should have been reprimanded, at least,
after they left Kobol. (But then, how do we know that he wasn't?)
      Of course, what was Apollo thinking when he blasted ahead of
Starbuck out into the void when they were on patrol??  That was pretty
reckless, too.  Of course, plot-wise, it helped to establish in this
episode that the two have a strong bond.  And maybe it shows that
Apollo's attraction to dangerous missions/actions was not just part of
a "death wish" after Serina died.  Okay, so who's been influencing
whom?  Has Apollo been around SB too long, or vice versa?  <g>  Or
maybe these examples of recklessness show how these two seemly very
different characters could be bonded so deeply, because they *do* share
some traits.
      Okay, enough rambling for now.
 
Maggie  :-)
 
 =====

     I agree that Baltar really was truthful when he said that they
could attack the Cylon capital and destroy them. 
     But, this also illustrates Baltars blind spot too.  He has no
concern for the thousands of survivors the Galactica is protecting. 
His only thought is of attack and taking power.  He has absolutely no
concern for anyone else but himself.  The Galatica needs to attack to
save Baltar from the Cylons.
     Yes, Apollo and Serina do try to save him.  The motives?  Hard to
say.  Apollo does mention at one point that they should not kill Baltar
so that he can face trial back at the fleet.
     The relationship between Starbuck and Apollo really comes out in
this episode.  Even when Starbuck is
absent (captured by the cylons) he is still a character and a part of
Apollo's life.  My question is...how well did Serina know him, because
she states that Starbuck would want them to get married even without
him there.  For some reason I don't really think that's what Starbuck
would have wanted.  And I never really saw Serina interact with
Starbuck.
     Just a thought.
 
Vaughn
 
=====

In a message dated 12/2/2000, Cathy writes:
 
 << I've been waiting to get to this episode because it contains
something that I can never figure out.  Namely, was Baltar lying when
he said he went along with the Cylons in a vain attempt to save Picon,
or was that a  ruse to gain Adama's trust?
Cathy >>
 
     My opinion is, Baltar actively helped the Cylons destroy the other
Colonies on the agreement that his colony would be given to him to
rule. When it was destroyed also, and the Cylons nearly killed him, he
had a period where he would have loved to turn the tables and get
revenge on the Cylons. So he approached Adama as soon as he could with
the idea of attacking the Cylon capital. When Adama turned him down
flat, he snapped what was left of his very thinly stretched sanity, and
came to the conclusion that the only way he could survive (and get
revenge, though now on Adama) was to go completely Cylon. After this is
when he starts saying "the humans" like he doesn't consider himself a
member of that species. BTW, does the series ever say what Colony
Baltar was from? I think Picon came from the old Encyclopedia
Galactica, which I never regarded as canon on anything, and I know some
writers (myself included) have put him on other Colonies.
 
Leah

=====

     In light of the current thread, I thought I'd throw in just a bit,
as I have long felt that this episode was very definitive, as well as a
major turning point for Baltar. 
     The scene in tomb, where he proposes a strike, I think he was
being  relatively honest, and I'll explain. I also went deep into this,
particularly the pre-destruction events that branded Baltar a traitor
in one of my Mud Daggit stories. 
     First of all, it would be totally insane and unthinkable to
believe that Baltar actually wanted the Colonies destroyed, at least to
the extent that happened. He was brought before the Imperious Leader,
and protested that he didn't want them "destroyed...Subjugated! Under
ME!" I think he knew even before then that he was in some deep
felgercarb, when he was talking with the two centurians on the planet's
surface, telling them to carry out their orders. 
     I think he saw a way, through the help of the Cylons, to remove
the competition in his quest for total power. In my story, the
Imperious Leader promises "pinpoint surgical strikes" designed to
cripple the resistance and remove the Council of the Twelve, which we
know DID happen, they just didn't stop there. 
     In that light, then, Baltar was being truthful to Adama, that he
was as much a victim as everyone else! 
     Once Baltar assumes command of the base ship, tracks down the
Galactica, and finally has a chance to make his plea. He's had a lot of
time on his hands to reflect on his actions, and come up with what he
would need to do to regain favor. He spins the tale of being a victim,
relatively honestly, and probably by this time truthfully believing
that he didn't do anything wrong. 
     Someone suggested that Baltar suggested the strike at Cylon
Homeworld in order to make himself the hero. Probably a lot of truth to
that as well, but I also think he has another motivation to that
too--revenge. He believes he was shafted (and technically he was) and
now he wants to strike back against those two-faced deal-breakers.
Either way, or both, still can be explained by believing that Baltar
really wanted to "redeem" himself in his fellow human's eyes. 
     Of course, Lucifer has a complex-enough analytical system to see
through it, ordering the attack to commence. 
     The turning point for Baltar was when he got buried and left
behind by Adama. This ordeal shifted his psyche from self-deluded to
mostly insane, in my opinion. When we see him after that, specifically
in Living Legend as he's leading the attack personally, you see the
madman coming through, and he is acting as it's a personal vendetta
with Adama. 
     All in all, I think Baltar was one of the most complex and
interesting characters in the whole show. Speaking personally with Mr.
Colicos, I think he also felt the same way, and had really gotten
"into" the character, even going as far as to suggest character
developing action and revelations to Glen Larson during the course of
the show. 
     OK, I've rambled enough. :-) 

James Lee 
BZRKR@aol.com 

=====

     Oh, excellent,  James!  I agree with you.  And --from one rambler
to another -- I love your ramblings.  Okay, I have to say more than
just "ditto" . . .  <g>  This episode was definitely a turning point
for Baltar.
I was watching the second part of GoIPZ on the SF Channel today and was
noticing Baltar's limp as he paced around.  It's obvious that the
writers for BSG *did* have some consistency -- they probably mostly
were trapped by the lack of time -- hence some of the less-than-good
stories.  But the potential was there from the beginning!  Baltar is a
prime example.  I wonder, now, if it was John Colicos or the writers
that had him limping...?
 
Maggie  :-)
 
=====

     Well, no doubt, James' point was very good  as to Baltar's true
intentions and his character's development. I hardly believe anyone
would disagree. Excellent analysis, IMHO :-)
     Yvonne touches a more delicate...< looking around and whispering
as Barb -Serina's defender, is not around> subject.  You know,
Yvonne... this is one of the points that makes me wonder.  In that
scene on at the bridge, Serina is making use of all arguments to
convince Apollo.  Perhaps, perhaps, persuasion (in that critical
moment, justifiable for her character's motivations) is more important
than, say, truth.  I don't believe she 'loves' SB, as she says. I don't
believe either that she, for one micron, really thinks that SB would
ever agree with her idea.  This because, IMHO, it's quite clear that SB
and Serina don't share close friendship and he'd not agree with their
wedding without his presence (his former behavior, the evidence of both
ideas above).
     I know that there's a cut scene where SB, after arriving on Kobol,
is made aware that A and S had married, and he asks startled "Without
me?" If the scene was ever incorporated on the episode, Serina's
statements would have sounded even more stranger.
     Anyway, Apollo certainly knows the truth whatever it's, when she
was convincing him. But he's loyal to both. He accepts Serina's
reasoning and also never tells her about SB's feelings and grudge.
     Only my view on the thing. I think that SB, S and A's triangle was
one of the few in-depth look at a complex relationship. Pity that, as
always, it was not explored to its full potential extent. 

eld

===

Eldriam wrote:

>Only my view on the thing. I think that SB, S and A's triangle was one
of the few in-depth look at a complex relatioship. Pity that, as
always, it was not explored to its full potential extent.<
 
     Agreed!  I think you were dead on target when you stated that
Serina lied -- but not to be deliberately selfish, though -- about
"loving SB."  We never at any point see SB and Serina acting as
friends.  And Apollo did his best to appease the two of them. 
Excellent analysis, Eldriam!
 
Maggie  :-)

=====

     I too hold to the view that Baltar's offer was genuine. The
reasons being  at that point, he wanted to get even with the Cylons for
doublecrossing him with perhaps a smidgen of a desire to make amends
part of the equation too. This would account for his deceit on
specifics concerning his actions (he was certainly not "trapped between
the President's battlestar and my own, and captured" since that would
not explain the scene of him conversing with the centurion on Caprica)
which he must do to put himself in the best possible light to Adama,
but as far as his general motive goes, I think the offer was sincere. 
     Baltar's subsequent hatred and obsession with destroying Adama
post LPOTG, to me stems entirely from the rejection and the fact that
by rejecting him, Baltar as a matter of survival has no choice but to
be fully loyal to the Cylon cause from then on. LPOTG also accounts for
his seemingly peculiar remark about wanting to settle old scores with
Starbuck and Apollo in "Baltar's Escape." To me, LPOTG is the context
for that in that Baltar is bitter at Apollo for not speaking out when
it seemed like he might have been willing to give Baltar a hearing
("Father, what if he can prove what he says?") and at Starbuck since
Starbuck is a permanent reminder of the plan he had hopes for (in that
taking Starbuck prisoner and releasing him was a vital part of it) that
in the end went awry. 

Eric 

=====

Actually, Maggie.
 
     I find this ep (one of my favorites) very revealing for SB's
character (actually, for many characters) as it's one of the few
instances where he's not hiding his true feelings.  BTC, he's stating
them blatantly clear.
     His behaviour is one of a little child, immature and, yet, quite
realistic and in place (so many of us are, to some extent,  emotionally
immature, when it comes down to self-confidence).  He goes "Oh, you
don't wanna play with me, then I wont play with you anymore too!" You
see that, when children are feeling rejected from a social group.
     Dirk says in one interview that he was playing his SB as a very
immature character. Pity that his and all the others characters'
psychology is not that much coherent along the show.
 
Eld.

===== 

Maggie wrote:
> Agreed!  I think you were dead on target when you stated that Serina
lied -- but not to be deliberately selfish, though -- about "loving
SB."<
 
     It's justifiable due to her need  in the moment. She was possibly
scared. Yet, difficult to believe that she'd ever 'love' the lieutenant
as she was not any fool and SB wasn't being hypocrite. Since the
beginning, he was easily readable and he was not exactly nice to her.
 
> We never at any point see SB and Serina acting as friends.  And
Apollo did his best to appease the two of them.<
      Precisely. You're certainly referring to the scene where SB
launches in their place and Apollo is in crossfire between the two,
trying to appease them.
 
 
eld.

======

Hi!
 
Eldriam wrote:
 >I find this ep (one of my fav) very revealing for SB's character <
(actually, for many characters) as it's one of

     Oh, I agree.  Even as a "Starbuckian," I freely admit that his
behavior was very honest and very immature in this episode.  He
undoubtedly didn't give one thought to what he was actually going to
do, once he jumped into Apollo's viper and launched into the void.  He
was angry and feeling rejected and just wanted out of there, IMO.  And
maybe felt like "I'll show you who's going on this patrol!"  Very
realistic emotions on his part, especially once we know, later on, that
Apollo *is* his family.  And don't we all feel those kinds of feelings,
from time to time -- we just don't usually act on them!
 
Maggie

======

     Great analysis from Eldriam, and Maggie is very right. Apollo is
stuck trying to appease the two most important people in his life.
     Would have been interesting had Serina lived to see the
interaction as the sectons and yahrens went by. Would Starbuck and
Serina finally find some common ground, or continue "fighting" for
yahrens.  I personally think the fight would have been on as you have
two very strong characters.  And well, he is Starbuck...he would
eventually get Apollo drunk, or lose his sectons pay again, getting
Apollo in trouble with the wife.
     But alas, we never found out.  She died, the poor thing.  Okay, is
it just my imagination or did Starbuck look relieved when they
pronounced her dead?
     Yes, that would have been a great scene of Starbuck asking
"Without me?"  I have a feeling that Starbuck would have felt very
rejected finding out they had the wedding just days after he was
captured and presumed dead.  I get the feeling Starbuck would have
liked to have been mourned a little more than that.  
     A good scene would have been Apollo trying to explain to Starbuck
the whole thing...Apollo explaining that he did it to honor Starbuck.
 
Vaughn

=====


> I was watching the second part of GoIPZ, noticing Baltar's limp as he
paced around.  I wonder, now, if it was John Colicos or the writers
that had him limping. <

     I have a feeling it was Colicos.  He was such a great actor.
     His work as a STNG Klingon is fantastic!  He had Klingon culture
down to an art form!  Of course he should since he helped to create it.
     He is missed!  He is featured a lot in Richard Hatch's trailer for
his revival.  It just won't be the same without him if they do revive
the show.
 
Vaughn
 
=====

eldriam@matrix.com.br wrote:
 
>Yvonne touches a more delicate...< looking around and whispering as
Barb -Serina's defender, is not around>

Hey!  I resemble that remark!  :-)
 
>In that scene on at the bridge, Serina is making use of all arguments
to convince Apollo. Perhaps, perhaps, persuasion (in that critical
moment, justifiable for her character's motivations) is more important
than, say, truth. I don't believe she 'loves' SB, as she says. I don't
believe either that she, for one micron, really thinks that SB would
ever agree with her idea. <
 
     I don't know that she ever really thought much about what she said
to Apollo on the bridge.  Serina seemed to alternate between being
strong and desperate. This was one of the desperate moments.  She was
so desperate to be married before Apollo got himself killed- that's the
way I saw this.  I don't think either of them ever imagined she'd be
the one to be killed in the line of duty.  (Yah, yah, Apollo was upset
when he had to train her as a viper pilot and scared but being scared
and really considering the possibility of a person's death are two
different things.  Apollo was definitely the more likely one to be
offed first since he flew combat/missions/patrols all the time and
would likely get himself killed trying to protect the less experienced
pilots, specifically his wife).  
     I always see Apollo and Serina as grasping at the first security
blanket to come along after the destruction and that happened to be
each other.  I think it would have been really interesting to have her
live and to have seen where the relationship would have gone once it
cooled off a little.  Serina and Starbuck could potentially have been
real soap opera material in trying to compete for Apollo's attention. 
Might have been just like two kids on the playground fighting over a
toy truck. 
 
>I know that there's a cut scene where SB, after arriving on Kobol, is
made aware that A and S had married, and he asks startled "Without me?"
<
 
     Interesting.  That's the first I've heard of it.  Don't forget
they all thought Starbuck was dead, so it would be unfair to paint
Serina as a conniving so-and-so, trying to sneak in a wedding while
Starbuck is missing. My take on that scene has always been that
Starbuck's disappearance/death was the thing that triggered Serina's
reaction.  She knows, as does everyone else, how good a warrior he is. 
I suspect that's when it hit her that if he could disappear, Apollo
might very well be next.  Thus her desperate, and successful, bid to
get married.  
 
Barb
 
=====


From: Sheba's Galaxy Site
MISSING SCENES FROM LOST PLANET OF THE GODS
 
     During Apollo's speech to the women pilots, it is revealed that
Dietra was a colonial warrior/pilot from the Atlantia who survived the
battlestar's destruction. Other women are also revealed to be seasoned
viper pilots.
     After the Galactica enters the void and Adama says, "Order all
ships to maintain visual contact on the Galactica."
Tigh says "Commander, some of the skippers on those old barges aren't
really Captains, they're trainees, barely competent. If we could skirt
the heart of this magnetic field..."
Adama: "Tigh... We may not have a providential guiding light to see us
through like our ancestors, but we do have the best navigators in the
universe aboard this battlestar. We will find our way."
Tigh: (sighs in frustration) "Yes, sir."
Omega: "The freighter Yarborough is now in distress and rolling. Unable
to keep visual on us."
Tigh: "Commander."
Adama: "Continue on course."
 
     In the life station, Starbuck and Apollo nervously watch Casseopia
lower the Cryo-tube temperature on Boomer. The doctor is standing over
Boomer administering medication.
Cassiopea: "Doctor Salik has isolated the virus. He's given Boomer an
anti-virus he believes will counteract the infection."
Starbuck: "Believes?"
Cassiopea: "He's the best. I'm sure he's right."
Apollo: "He'd better be. We're betting their lives on him."
Cassiopea goes back to reading the monitors. The doctor crosses to the
console and looks down on her.
Starbuck: "Boomer?" And then the rest of the scene continues.
 
     There is more dialogue between the female pilots during their
victory celebration at the officers' club.
     After Baltar tells Lucifer that the humans "will come willingly to
my arms", Lucifer tells him that three ships have drifted away from the
Colonial fleet and suggests they destroy them, but Baltar refuses.
      There is more to the wedding - Adama says to Apollo, "Nervous?"
Apollo says, "No. Not a bit."
Adama answers, "Neither was I when I was married to your mother."
Serina and Boxey enter. Adama first asks if Boxey (the protector of
Serina) will relinquish his responsibilities to Apollo. Boxey looks at
Apollo and says nothing. Then he smiles and
says "Yes!" and there is a sigh of relief among everyone.  Then Adama
wraps the medallion around the wrists of Apollo and Serina, and the
rest of the scene begins
     On Kobol, Adama says that, after the planet died, the people
"turned on the technology that could have saved them. After they
destroyed the ships that took them away, it took them hundreds of
yahrens to revive even the most primitive crafts."
     After Starbuck is released and Apollo orders everyone to break
camp, Athena tells Starbuck that he and Serina were just sealed.
Starbuck asks, "Sealed! Without me?"
Athena says, "Well... if you really want to be at a marriage
ceremony..."
Starbuck realizes what she is implying and quickly runs off.
     When the Galactica launches fighters to aid in the battle of
Kobol, one of the pilots loses consciousness in the middle of the
launch and his ship explodes in the launch tube. Two other pilots are
unable to launch due to falling unconscious.
     When the outnumbered viper squadron is trapped, Dietra says,
"We're trapped!"
Starbuck: "Let's go out fighting. (beat) Athena!"
Athena: "On your wing, Starbuck."
Starbuck: (believing he is about to die) "I love you! Sort of."
 
===== 

The Hutchisons wrote:
 
>I wonder, now, if it was John Colicos or the writers that had him
limping 

     I believe it was the actor.  I vaguely recall something along that
line.  I still think Baltar was framed.  I still think Adama knew more
than he let on.
 
- Eugenia
(Pausing in the middle of hearings.)
 
=====

     Good Analysis Barb.  Yes, Starbuck's disappearance did shake
everyone up.  But why would Serina be desperate to marry someone who
could die at any moment...oh wait, this was a show on tv on Sunday
during the family hour...OF COURSE!  They couldn't "do it" until they
were married!
     That's why the rush!  Oh, and the chance to have a wedding without
Starbuck around to be jealous and then get smashed at the reception.
     Just kidding!
     This is a great analysis of what some of the women were thinking
and feeling during all of this.  This makes sense as to why Serina
would want to speed up the wedding.  She wants to make sure there is a
wedding!
 
Vaughn
 
=====

* Warning this post could be construed as a Serina bash!*
 
Vaughn,
 
     I'm glad someone brought this viewpoint up because this is what
always bothered me about that scene -- it just doesn't really make
sense (to me anyway).  If what she is saying is true *like it could
happen any minute* then what is the point of rushing the wedding?
Hmmmmm maybe it shows her idea of the military, duty, war and Apollo
are maybe still very romanticized and maybe even a little selfish -
someone pointed out that her actions in SOASW could be construed as
such.  Perhaps it is just bad writing and characterization - the
writers knew she was going to get killed so what did they care? I could
see how Apollo would go along with her though, his best friend has just
gone missing, *almost certainly dead*, he would be desperate for
something to cling onto ...
      That scene might perhaps have worked better (and more
sympathetically towards Serina) if perhaps the roles had been reversed,
with Apollo the one seeking the comfort from the guilt of having yet
another person close to him dying to protect him ....... he I think
would maybe think it would also persuade Serina to give up the military
role she took up (and that's a whole 'nother topic :) )
      As I say I hate this scene the most in all BSG, it smacks of lack
of thought, lack of logic even, (I mean Serina's moaning about perhaps
dying and not coming back etc when she is quite happy to take part in
military ops ....), careless writing and characterization .........
 
Anyway that's my two cents worth and I will crawl back into
lurkerdom....
 
Fingers
 
==== 

In a message dated 12/4/00 9:41:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
vaughnnie@yahoo.com writes:
 
<<  But why would Serina be desperate to marry someone who could die at
any moment...oh wait, this was a show on tv on Sunday during the family
hour...OF COURSE!  They couldn't "do it" until they were married! >>
  
    Actually, there was a hint that Serina and Apollo were "keepin'
company."  When they were arguing about her becoming a warrior, she
tells Apollo that  he'll be "locked out of" her chambers that night. 
My guess, playin' Scrabble  they ain't!!
 
                                            Cathy

=====
     Good point.  Naked scrabble maybe?
     Well that blows my theory out of the water....although....
     I had it pointed out to me by someone at work that during WWII it
was very very common for gals to marry their boyfriends on the eve of
sending them off to war.  Mostly for the status of saying they had been
married.  But also for that promise that there could be a future
together.  Kind of like a special little hope, "Of course my man will
return, we're married!"
      Okay, so Apollo slept with Serina before they were married...OH
MY!!!  How did Adama feel about this?  
 
Vaughn :-0
 
=====
> Anyway that's my two cents worth and I will crawl back into
lurkerdom....

     Oh but I like it when you de-lurk!  You had an excellent
suggestion.  This scene would have worked very very well with Apollo
approaching Serina.  It would have been much more plausible.
     Plus I do think this scene stands out because the rest of the
episode flows so well with some great plot and character development,
except for that one scene.  We certainly gain more perspective into
Baltar, and we even get to see Adama a little bit obsessive about his
"lost tribe."
     I always got the sense that Adama had spent days down in those
tombs, only to find the answer JUST AS THE CYLONS BEGIN BOMBING!!! 
Poor Adama...
 
Vaughn

===== 

     Actually, I don't see Apollo approaching Serina at this point with
wedding bells in mind.  When people around him get hurt or killed, he
withdraws, hardens himself emotionally.  Maybe, beyond her own
desperation, Serina was thinking, "If he pulls away from me now, at a
time like this, he may do something stupid."  In her mind, she was
giving him something to live for -- herself and Boxey -- as well as
giving herself someone to cling to at a time of yet more emotional
stress and grief.  She senses that they need to have each other.
      I suspect she and Starbuck had gotten to know each other more
than just a little.  Starbuck was at the "announcement dinner."  I do
think that's significant -- I think the relationship with Apollo
inevitably had to involve his friend Starbuck.  And remember how well
she and Athena seemed to get along -- more evidence, I think, that
there's been some time and development of relationships going on. And
Cassie was at the wedding, right up there with the rest of the gals. 
If Serina hadn't gotten to know Cassie (and how better to have gotten
to know her than through Starbuck, without judging him with respect to
his behavior with women?), why would she have been invited?
     Whether there was or would have been rivalry for Apollo's time and
attention left open for future discussion, I'm inclined to go along
with the "I loved him too" as being sincere, at that point in time and
in that emotional state for both of them.
 
-- Sharon
 
=====

Thanks, Sharon,
 
     You put it far better than I would have.  It's hard to know how
much time passed between some of the eps but in general, there had to
be a fair bit of "time unaccounted for".  What we ended up seeing in
the series was really only snapshots- brief moments and incidents in,
potentially, a far bigger story.  This becomes quite important when
you're trying to figure out who knew what about whom.  
     I think we also have the problem of first season syndrome where
the writers are still trying to get comfortable and consistent with the
characters.  I've always taken the "marriage proposal" scene at face
value.  Perhaps a problem point is that Starbuck's character hasn't
really been well-established yet (he wasn't originally going to be such
a major part of the story, as I understand it) and maybe the writers
have made him a bit more immature in this ep than he really is. 
Certainly in later shows, he's far more settled and mature, without
being any less fun or troublesome.  :-) 
     Actually, now that I muse on this some more, Starbuck almost seems
more two-dimensional to me in this ep.  He's basically the comic relief
with a heart.  I think you can get away with that when you're writing a
minor character, but not with a main character.  He's more
well-rounded, more three-dimensional in later eps.  I wonder how much
of that is because Starbuck quickly became far more central to the
story than had originally been planned?

 
Barb
 
=====

Good points from everyone!
 
Barb wrote:
>.  It's hard to know how much time passed between some of the eps <

     Yes!  I was wondering about this when watching both SoaSW and
LpotG.  Even in Saga, I think more time passes than we may think about. 
And yes, the way that Serina is interacting with Athena at the dinner
does suggest that maybe even a couple of months (or more!) has passed. 
Hmmm, I what what Adama would consider an appropriate "dating period," 
since he seems as ready as the others for the "announcement."

>I think we also have the problem of first season syndrome where the
writers are still trying to get comfortable and consistent with the
characters.<

    Hmmm, that makes sense.  But having the perspective of the whole
series, I still see that even Starbuck's immaturity there was in
character -- when we look at how he reacts when it comes to his
"family."  The other wildly childish episode for SB is when he "ends"
his friendship with Apollo and Boomer after learning of the security
check on Chameleon.  That "temper tantrum" was equal to his little
scene in LPotG, IMO, and both times were when he felt his security and
"family" were threatened.  Being only the second episode (LPotG, that
is), the foundation for SB was being laid, intentionally or not.  By
this ep, I wonder if his "character biography" was known, or not?
 
Anyway, my thought on a Wednesday morning!
 
Maggie  :-)
 
  =====

     Just to say that I'd agree with Maggie's assessment of SB' s
immature behavior. I mean, he was, originally, designed to behave like
so, even according to Dirk's interviews, when he states that he was
playing SB with childish traits (though there's a little difference
between one being childish and immature, okay).
     Now, his incapability to keep a steady relationship with a woman
is just another symptom of his immaturity. Too bad? No! I find it
wonderful, actually, one of the points that adds some substance to his
character, IMHO.
     We need heroes as models, but it's nice to see them firstly
portraying our own weakness and immature traits too, so that, from that
point on, the character might grow (or not).  Most of us are jealous,
but hide our feelings 'cause it's not socially appropriated. SB is an
irreverent character and if his wild will is too tamed, IMHO, he loses
a bit of his original irreverence.
     Plus, we can never discount the environment they are living in. An
endangered species' context would cause lots of survival mechanisms to
be triggered.
     Possessiveness, 'fight for territory' being just one of them (on
the so-called negative side). SB is, IMHO, quite a zealous and jealous
character, like all of them, doing the best to keep the few they were
left with.
     Just a thought. You've been too quiet!
 
 Eld.

=====

Yvonne Taylor wrote:
>It just amazes me how the writer captured all of that intensity and
action, all those special effects with short precise sentence. <
     Definitely.  I've not read the book but I've read similar things
in other stories.  Action scenes often use shorter sentences because
these "move" things faster, just as you expect the action to be moving
quickly.  It would be very interesting to read the same action scene
written in short sentences (generally, of course- not necessarily
_every_ sentence) and then rewritten with longer, compound sentences.
It would be neat to compare the feel and flow of the scene since longer
sentences tend to slow things down.  Anyone game to try this little
exercise and then let us all read both scene bits?
     Longer sentences are used more in slower passages where you're
describing things or when you're doing an internal scene for a
character (their thoughts and feelings and whatnot).  Actually, it
would also be neat to take a short scene like this, written in long
sentences, and then rewrite it with shorter, action-scene-like
sentences and see how the mood changes.   Does anyone have time on
their hands who wants to give one of these a go?
 
Barb